TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
That’s a common misunderstanding on quantum physics and not actually what it says. Particles are real. — Darkneos
That assertion depends on how you define "real". If your interest is in statistical mathematical predictions, picturing the wave crests of a quantum field as billiard balls will work. But if you define material objects in terms of definite location & mass, those mathematical particles seem to be more like waves of energy.
Note that in the description below, "to consider" means "to imagine" an object to have a specified quality that is useful in a specific context. Events (processes) in the quantum field do have measurable effects on the macro level. And if you like to visualize those invisible events as little spherical particles, the math will still work. But billiard balls and cannon balls are "real" in a different sense.
Quantum particles are considered "real" in the sense that they are the fundamental building blocks of matter, as described by quantum mechanics, and their existence is confirmed by numerous experiments which accurately predict their behavior and interactions, even though their properties like superposition and entanglement may seem counterintuitive to our everyday experience at larger scales
___Google A.I. Overview
Are Quantum Particles Real? :
It depends how you define “real”. If you define reality as what is “really” macroscopically observable, than particles are real. Quantum Field Theory cannot predict the “value” of an observable quantity except probabilistically. Just like with “normal” Quantum Mechanics pure “quantum” is not describing reality. . . . .
Talking about particles is a way to talk about fields but in different terms.
https://www.quora.com/Are-particles-act ... -of-fields
That assertion depends on how you define "real". If your interest is in statistical mathematical predictions, picturing the wave crests of a quantum field as billiard balls will work. But if you define material objects in terms of definite location & mass, those mathematical particles seem to be more like waves of energy.
Note that in the description below, "to consider" means "to imagine" an object to have a specified quality that is useful in a specific context. Events (processes) in the quantum field do have measurable effects on the macro level. And if you like to visualize those invisible events as little spherical particles, the math will still work. But billiard balls and cannon balls are "real" in a different sense.
Quantum particles are considered "real" in the sense that they are the fundamental building blocks of matter, as described by quantum mechanics, and their existence is confirmed by numerous experiments which accurately predict their behavior and interactions, even though their properties like superposition and entanglement may seem counterintuitive to our everyday experience at larger scales
___Google A.I. Overview
Are Quantum Particles Real? :
It depends how you define “real”. If you define reality as what is “really” macroscopically observable, than particles are real. Quantum Field Theory cannot predict the “value” of an observable quantity except probabilistically. Just like with “normal” Quantum Mechanics pure “quantum” is not describing reality. . . . .
Talking about particles is a way to talk about fields but in different terms.
https://www.quora.com/Are-particles-act ... -of-fields
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
Apparently, the philosophical implications of this revolutionary New Science created perplexities that jolted his old viewpoint and informed his new worldview. — Gnomon
Based on what the physicists told me there are no philosophical implications, just people who don’t understand it saying there are. — Darkneos
So your unnamed "physicist" is saying that the pioneers of quantum physics didn't understand the philosophical implications of statistical (versus deterministic) quantum mechanics. Bohr, Planck, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, etc, all used philosophical metaphors in their attempts to make sense of the non-classical results of their experiments. That Quantum Theory works is not disputed. But what it means, in terms of philosophical worldview*1, remains open to question a century later.
For example, Einstein debated Bohr hoping to prove that Bohr's interpretation of quantum events was wrong. History records that Bohr was vindicated*2. Whitehead's Process Philosophy*3 was an attempt to create a new non-classical worldview that would take into account the Statistical Uncertainty and Indeterminate Mechanics of the New Physics, which eventually became the most validated scientific theory*4, despite it's unorthodox philosophical implications.
Apparently your understanding of quantum physics is closer to Einstein's. But Whitehead was also a certified genius. His "understanding" had little effect on the practical science of physics, but his philosophical interpretation is still discussed on this forum. Is pragmatic Science more important to you than theoretical Philosophy? If so, why do you waste time posting on a philosophy forum?
*1. The Copenhagen interpretation is a collection of views about the meaning of quantum mechanics,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation
*2. Quantum Philosophy Debate :
Einstein and Niels Bohr began disputing Quantum Theory at the prestigious 1927 Solvay Conference, attended by top physicists of the day. By most accounts of this public debate, Bohr was the victor.
https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/einste ... tum-theory
*3. Quantum process philosophy is a philosophical approach that combines process philosophy with quantum mechanics. It views the world as a collection of processes that are constantly changing, rather than a collection of static objects.
Quantum mechanics challenges traditional ideas of time and causality. For example, it describes scenarios that make it difficult to understand how cause and effect work at the quantum level.
Quantum process philosophy can be used to describe consciousness, which is a complex phenomenon that is difficult to explain using traditional scientific methods.
___Google A.I. Overview :
*4. Quantum Physics isn't as weird as you think. It's weirder.
It is one of the best-tested theories of physics, and we use it all the time. On the face of it, however, the quantum realm is extraordinary: Within it, quantum objects can be “in two places at once”; they can move through barriers; and share a connection no matter how far apart they are.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... s-weirder/
Based on what the physicists told me there are no philosophical implications, just people who don’t understand it saying there are. — Darkneos
So your unnamed "physicist" is saying that the pioneers of quantum physics didn't understand the philosophical implications of statistical (versus deterministic) quantum mechanics. Bohr, Planck, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, etc, all used philosophical metaphors in their attempts to make sense of the non-classical results of their experiments. That Quantum Theory works is not disputed. But what it means, in terms of philosophical worldview*1, remains open to question a century later.
For example, Einstein debated Bohr hoping to prove that Bohr's interpretation of quantum events was wrong. History records that Bohr was vindicated*2. Whitehead's Process Philosophy*3 was an attempt to create a new non-classical worldview that would take into account the Statistical Uncertainty and Indeterminate Mechanics of the New Physics, which eventually became the most validated scientific theory*4, despite it's unorthodox philosophical implications.
Apparently your understanding of quantum physics is closer to Einstein's. But Whitehead was also a certified genius. His "understanding" had little effect on the practical science of physics, but his philosophical interpretation is still discussed on this forum. Is pragmatic Science more important to you than theoretical Philosophy? If so, why do you waste time posting on a philosophy forum?
*1. The Copenhagen interpretation is a collection of views about the meaning of quantum mechanics,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation
*2. Quantum Philosophy Debate :
Einstein and Niels Bohr began disputing Quantum Theory at the prestigious 1927 Solvay Conference, attended by top physicists of the day. By most accounts of this public debate, Bohr was the victor.
https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/einste ... tum-theory
*3. Quantum process philosophy is a philosophical approach that combines process philosophy with quantum mechanics. It views the world as a collection of processes that are constantly changing, rather than a collection of static objects.
Quantum mechanics challenges traditional ideas of time and causality. For example, it describes scenarios that make it difficult to understand how cause and effect work at the quantum level.
Quantum process philosophy can be used to describe consciousness, which is a complex phenomenon that is difficult to explain using traditional scientific methods.
___Google A.I. Overview :
*4. Quantum Physics isn't as weird as you think. It's weirder.
It is one of the best-tested theories of physics, and we use it all the time. On the face of it, however, the quantum realm is extraordinary: Within it, quantum objects can be “in two places at once”; they can move through barriers; and share a connection no matter how far apart they are.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... s-weirder/
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
↪Gnomon
gotta say your sources of Quora and google AI is a red flag. They don’t really understand it enough, physics stack exchange is a good one. It’s where I learned they are real and not in a probability sense. — Darkneos
Just as I suspected, from your line of questioning, you are more interested in Physics than Philosophy. I assume that the Physics Stack Exchange would give you more satisfactory feedback, that agrees with your orthodox belief system. However, the Philosophy Stack Exchange might give you a different perspective*1. But why bother with philosophy, when it only asks stupid questions and never produces anything useful : i.e. physical?
*1. What does Whitehead mean by calling science anti-rational?
In Science and the Modern World, Whitehead writes:
Science has never shaken off the impress of its origin in the historical revolt of the later renaissance. It has remained predominantly an anti-rationalistic movement, based upon a naive faith. What reasoning it has wanted it has borrowed from mathematics which is a surviving relic of Greek rationalism, following the deductive method. Science repudiates philosophy. In other words, it has never cared to justify its faith or to explain its meanings; and has remained blandly indifferent to its refutation by Hume.
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... ional?rq=1
gotta say your sources of Quora and google AI is a red flag. They don’t really understand it enough, physics stack exchange is a good one. It’s where I learned they are real and not in a probability sense. — Darkneos
Just as I suspected, from your line of questioning, you are more interested in Physics than Philosophy. I assume that the Physics Stack Exchange would give you more satisfactory feedback, that agrees with your orthodox belief system. However, the Philosophy Stack Exchange might give you a different perspective*1. But why bother with philosophy, when it only asks stupid questions and never produces anything useful : i.e. physical?
*1. What does Whitehead mean by calling science anti-rational?
In Science and the Modern World, Whitehead writes:
Science has never shaken off the impress of its origin in the historical revolt of the later renaissance. It has remained predominantly an anti-rationalistic movement, based upon a naive faith. What reasoning it has wanted it has borrowed from mathematics which is a surviving relic of Greek rationalism, following the deductive method. Science repudiates philosophy. In other words, it has never cared to justify its faith or to explain its meanings; and has remained blandly indifferent to its refutation by Hume.
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... ional?rq=1
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
You also never answered my original questions about it from my first post. All this you’ve posted is just noise. — Darkneos
Actually, although I am not an expert on Whitehead's philosophy, I did give you the same answer that the Physics Stack Exchange offered : the ultimate reality is Process not Substance*1. If your worldview is based on Materialism, that won't make sense. I also discussed some of the Ethical Implications of his theory. Yet again, the ethics of Materialism*2 would consider anything immaterial as just so much noise.
*1. What does Process Philosophy mean exactly and the ethical implications of it?
"Process philosophy has as its fundamental ontological entity the process, not the substance. Hence process philosophy attempts to explain and to understand the phenomena from their interaction, their dynamics and their changing, not from an idealized static state."
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... ions-of-it
*2. Materialism Ethics :
Materialists judged immoral acts done by the self and others more differentially. Materialists' preference for moral rules is more contingent on their self-interest.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6622000812
Note --- This definition sounds like Trump ethics : he who dies with the most gold, wins.
Actually, although I am not an expert on Whitehead's philosophy, I did give you the same answer that the Physics Stack Exchange offered : the ultimate reality is Process not Substance*1. If your worldview is based on Materialism, that won't make sense. I also discussed some of the Ethical Implications of his theory. Yet again, the ethics of Materialism*2 would consider anything immaterial as just so much noise.
*1. What does Process Philosophy mean exactly and the ethical implications of it?
"Process philosophy has as its fundamental ontological entity the process, not the substance. Hence process philosophy attempts to explain and to understand the phenomena from their interaction, their dynamics and their changing, not from an idealized static state."
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... ions-of-it
*2. Materialism Ethics :
Materialists judged immoral acts done by the self and others more differentially. Materialists' preference for moral rules is more contingent on their self-interest.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6622000812
Note --- This definition sounds like Trump ethics : he who dies with the most gold, wins.
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
So once again you don’t or rather can’t answer my questions. Seems like no one actually understands this enough to answer me. — Darkneos
That's pretty sad. I suppose living in a dimly-lit world explains your choice of screen-name.
I'm sorry you didn't get any enlightenment out of this thread. But after this review, I now think I understand much better Whitehead's philosophical interpretation of the unorthodox New Physics. Process Philosophy is amenable to my personal worldview, but obviously not to yours. You can lead a horse to quantum philosophy, but you can't understand it for him.
Since my immaterial mind was already open to the possibility of a combination of Quantum Physics and Metaphysics, I've enjoyed this one-sided dialog. Despite the frequent razzberries --- which I ignore as a sign of childish incomprehension --- this new outlook has brightened my day.
Process philosophy rejects the doctrine of scientific materialism and substance-based metaphysics that entities can only influence each other by means of external relations.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1068/d13195p
PS___ Understanding anything new & different requires an open mind. But if you don't believe in a metaphysical Mind, you might take the metaphor of an open-mind literally, so it takes a jack-hammer to bounce new ideas off your skull.
miscellaneous-open_mind-open_minded-unbiased-biased-key-CS550857_low.jpg
PPS___ If it was not obvious, I've been using your original incredulous post as a quote to further my own end of understanding Process Philosophy. Not to answer your covert materialist put-down of metaphysical philosophy. I've had many dialogs similar to this, and they all end as they began, with the Materialist claiming victory over the ignorant Mentalist.
That's pretty sad. I suppose living in a dimly-lit world explains your choice of screen-name.
I'm sorry you didn't get any enlightenment out of this thread. But after this review, I now think I understand much better Whitehead's philosophical interpretation of the unorthodox New Physics. Process Philosophy is amenable to my personal worldview, but obviously not to yours. You can lead a horse to quantum philosophy, but you can't understand it for him.
Since my immaterial mind was already open to the possibility of a combination of Quantum Physics and Metaphysics, I've enjoyed this one-sided dialog. Despite the frequent razzberries --- which I ignore as a sign of childish incomprehension --- this new outlook has brightened my day.
Process philosophy rejects the doctrine of scientific materialism and substance-based metaphysics that entities can only influence each other by means of external relations.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1068/d13195p
PS___ Understanding anything new & different requires an open mind. But if you don't believe in a metaphysical Mind, you might take the metaphor of an open-mind literally, so it takes a jack-hammer to bounce new ideas off your skull.
miscellaneous-open_mind-open_minded-unbiased-biased-key-CS550857_low.jpg
PPS___ If it was not obvious, I've been using your original incredulous post as a quote to further my own end of understanding Process Philosophy. Not to answer your covert materialist put-down of metaphysical philosophy. I've had many dialogs similar to this, and they all end as they began, with the Materialist claiming victory over the ignorant Mentalist.
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
Probably true, but i would need to really understand where you're coming from to make any headway. Although its not my job to make you care, and i don't care if you care or not. I'm simply entertaining myself. — punos
↪Darkneos may be just playing dumb, in order to troll forum posters who are dumb enough to take the bait : "I don't understand, and you're not smart enough to explain it to me".
Apparently, the "it" is some arcane ethical wisdom in Process and Reality. But I didn't take-away any particular ethical principle from the book, other than to be open to change in a dynamic world. He seems to be looking for a Process guru --- which I am not --- to reveal some abstruse Truth. It shouldn't take a genius to know that our world evolves, both physically and ethically. The Golden Rule never changes, but the evolving nature/culture does.
I did find this thread to be "entertaining", in the sense that it gave me incentive to get deeper into Process Philosophy, and to understand how it applies to my own personal worldview : where I'm coming from. Dark's dumb act just led me deeper into the rabbit-hole of a Reality that won't stand still for me to catch it. Like the Red Queen, you have to run faster & faster to avoid falling behind.
Process philosophy ethics is a school of thought that emphasizes the importance of change and becoming over permanence and being. It suggests that ethics and morality should be situational and adaptive, and that harmony can be achieved through evolving relationships
___Google A.I. Overview
↪Darkneos may be just playing dumb, in order to troll forum posters who are dumb enough to take the bait : "I don't understand, and you're not smart enough to explain it to me".
Apparently, the "it" is some arcane ethical wisdom in Process and Reality. But I didn't take-away any particular ethical principle from the book, other than to be open to change in a dynamic world. He seems to be looking for a Process guru --- which I am not --- to reveal some abstruse Truth. It shouldn't take a genius to know that our world evolves, both physically and ethically. The Golden Rule never changes, but the evolving nature/culture does.
I did find this thread to be "entertaining", in the sense that it gave me incentive to get deeper into Process Philosophy, and to understand how it applies to my own personal worldview : where I'm coming from. Dark's dumb act just led me deeper into the rabbit-hole of a Reality that won't stand still for me to catch it. Like the Red Queen, you have to run faster & faster to avoid falling behind.
Process philosophy ethics is a school of thought that emphasizes the importance of change and becoming over permanence and being. It suggests that ethics and morality should be situational and adaptive, and that harmony can be achieved through evolving relationships
___Google A.I. Overview
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
But to write it off as a process just makes it seem like it's not a human being, an entity, or a thing. It's nothing, because processes involve things but aren't things themselves. — Darkneos
Fine, so what is the fundamental static substance on which these processes run and operate? Is it like little solid balls or objects like the atoms of Democritus? — punos
↪Darkneos seems to have a thing about Things, and dismisses Processes that are not things. I'm not sure where he's coming from, but a focus on Substance seems to be inherent in Materialism : "what it is instead of what it does". Based on my experience on this forum, the antithesis of Materialism may be Spiritualism : the obvious building blocks (Substance) of the world versus the invisible causal power (Change ; Evolution) in the real world.
Ironically, the ancient Atomists imagined the fundamental elements of reality as tiny balls of hard stuff, but they reluctantly added the non-stuff Void in order to allow Atoms to move and change form. But then the question arises : what Force holds minuscule atoms together in the macro scale objects that our senses perceive?
For Democritus, the material Atoms were viewed as more real than the Void (empty space). Yet, he didn't seem to have a concept of our modern notion of Energy or Forces, and motion was just taken for granted. So, his worldview was basically rigid, static & geometric instead of fluid, dynamic & amorphous. However, modern science has been forced to make allowances for immaterial Forces that move things around and hold them together.
Apparently Whitehead was intrigued by the importance of the non-things of the world, as exemplified in Quantum Physics. So, his focus was on Change & Causation (becoming) instead of just plain Being. I find it surprising that the OP questioned the Ethical implications of Process theory (subjectivity?), presumably as contrasted with the Ethics of Objects (objectivity). Apparently, Materialists interpret Process philosophy as a non-sensical (immaterial) religious & spiritual worldview. I can see the spiritual & theological implications*1, but I'm not aware of any practical religion based on the Process Theory.
I was inspired by this thread to dig deeper into Whitehead's philosophy, that seemed to be be compatible with my own non-religious worldview --- which was also based on the New Physics of quantum theory, plus the New Metaphysics of Information theory --- not on any particular religious tradition. I call that worldview Enformationism, as an update of both Materialism and Spiritualism, that have been scientifically outdated since the 20th century. Now I have uploaded a new post to my blog, as a brief summary of how Process and Reality compares with Enformationism. If you can find the time to read and review the two-page essay*2, I'd appreciate any constructive criticism you can offer.
*1. "Process and Reality" is a philosophical work by Alfred North Whitehead that explores the concept of reality as a dynamic, interconnected web of "actual occasions" where everything is constantly becoming, essentially presenting a spiritual perspective that views the universe as a process rather than a static structure; this is often referred to as "process philosophy" or "philosophy of organism."
___ Google A.I. Overview
*2. Evolutionary Process and Cosmic Reality :
"Alfred North Whitehead’s book, Process and Reality, is a philosophical thesis, not a scientific essay. But it challenges the philosophical implications of Darwin’s mechanistic theory of Evolution. Instead of a simple series of energy exchanges, the Cosmos functions as a holistic organism. Hence, the eventual emergence of subordinate living creatures should not be surprising."
http://bothandblog8.enformationism.info/page43.html
Fine, so what is the fundamental static substance on which these processes run and operate? Is it like little solid balls or objects like the atoms of Democritus? — punos
↪Darkneos seems to have a thing about Things, and dismisses Processes that are not things. I'm not sure where he's coming from, but a focus on Substance seems to be inherent in Materialism : "what it is instead of what it does". Based on my experience on this forum, the antithesis of Materialism may be Spiritualism : the obvious building blocks (Substance) of the world versus the invisible causal power (Change ; Evolution) in the real world.
Ironically, the ancient Atomists imagined the fundamental elements of reality as tiny balls of hard stuff, but they reluctantly added the non-stuff Void in order to allow Atoms to move and change form. But then the question arises : what Force holds minuscule atoms together in the macro scale objects that our senses perceive?
For Democritus, the material Atoms were viewed as more real than the Void (empty space). Yet, he didn't seem to have a concept of our modern notion of Energy or Forces, and motion was just taken for granted. So, his worldview was basically rigid, static & geometric instead of fluid, dynamic & amorphous. However, modern science has been forced to make allowances for immaterial Forces that move things around and hold them together.
Apparently Whitehead was intrigued by the importance of the non-things of the world, as exemplified in Quantum Physics. So, his focus was on Change & Causation (becoming) instead of just plain Being. I find it surprising that the OP questioned the Ethical implications of Process theory (subjectivity?), presumably as contrasted with the Ethics of Objects (objectivity). Apparently, Materialists interpret Process philosophy as a non-sensical (immaterial) religious & spiritual worldview. I can see the spiritual & theological implications*1, but I'm not aware of any practical religion based on the Process Theory.
I was inspired by this thread to dig deeper into Whitehead's philosophy, that seemed to be be compatible with my own non-religious worldview --- which was also based on the New Physics of quantum theory, plus the New Metaphysics of Information theory --- not on any particular religious tradition. I call that worldview Enformationism, as an update of both Materialism and Spiritualism, that have been scientifically outdated since the 20th century. Now I have uploaded a new post to my blog, as a brief summary of how Process and Reality compares with Enformationism. If you can find the time to read and review the two-page essay*2, I'd appreciate any constructive criticism you can offer.
*1. "Process and Reality" is a philosophical work by Alfred North Whitehead that explores the concept of reality as a dynamic, interconnected web of "actual occasions" where everything is constantly becoming, essentially presenting a spiritual perspective that views the universe as a process rather than a static structure; this is often referred to as "process philosophy" or "philosophy of organism."
___ Google A.I. Overview
*2. Evolutionary Process and Cosmic Reality :
"Alfred North Whitehead’s book, Process and Reality, is a philosophical thesis, not a scientific essay. But it challenges the philosophical implications of Darwin’s mechanistic theory of Evolution. Instead of a simple series of energy exchanges, the Cosmos functions as a holistic organism. Hence, the eventual emergence of subordinate living creatures should not be surprising."
http://bothandblog8.enformationism.info/page43.html
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
So, what is the point of 'Process Philosophy'?
What are its ethical implications? Or any other kind, for that matter? — Amity
I can't say with any authority, what Whitehead's "point" was. But my takeaway is that he was inspired by the counterintuitive-yet-provable "facts" of the New Physics of the 20th century --- that contrasted with 17th century Classical Physics --- to return the distracted philosophical focus a> from what is observed (matter), to the observer (mind), b> from local to universal, c> from mechanical steps to ultimate goals. Where Science studies *percepts* (specifics ; local ; particles), the New Philosophy will investigate *concepts* (generals ; universals ; processes). The "point" of that re-directed attention was the same as always though : basic understanding of Nature, Reality, Knowledge, and Value*1.
Our senses & intuitions are "tuned" to macro-scale Newtonian mechanics. Which is why quantum things & processes seem weird. During the 19th century, Physical Science had been very successful in allowing one species to take control of their environment. Consequently, the pragmatic victories scored by Matter-manipulating Physics & Chemistry, had put theoretical Philosophy in a bad light. And, when their former role as the captains of academia diminished in market value, philosophers began to suffer from "lab coat envy". Consequently, today, on this very forum, speculative & argumentative philosophy is often disparaged as useless, unless it can point to empirical evidence. Many TPF posters seem to have taken the attitude : if you can't beat them (science) join them (Scientism).
On the other hand, Whitehead seemed to envision, in the light of quantum physics, a new direction for Natural Philosophy. Instead of continuing the ancient quest of Atomism (the ultimate particle of matter), philosophers should now turn their attention to Wholes instead of Parts. From this new/old perspective, the Cosmos is not just a swirling mass of matter/energy, but an evolving process metaphysically moving toward some future state. Exactly what that Omega Point might be is of course unknown, but its direction can be inferred from the trajectory of its history.
Modern materialistic Science has been superbly successful in wresting control of Nature for the benefit of a few featherless big-brain bipeds. But Metaphysical Philosophy is not concerned with such practical matters. Instead, it studies intellectual questions of Meaning & Value. By contrast, Science per se is not interested in Ethics other than Utility : such as the very successful Atom bomb project, aimed at annihilating cities. So, the Ethics of Science*2 seems to be a philosophical endeavor tacked-on after the fact : as when Oppenheimer lamented, "I have become Death, destroyer of worlds".
Whitehead's philosophy can be labeled as Spiritual*3 (intellectual instead of physical) in the sense that it recognizes invisible forces & fields*4 at work in the world. But, unlike the traditional scientific notion of local cause & effect, he speculates on universal causes that control the direction of Evolution. So, whatever Ethics is associated with Process Philosophy will be global in its effects, and teleological in its aims.
*1. Point of Philosophy vs Science :
# Science deals in evidence while philosophy deals in arguments
# Science looks for empirical knowledge and facts, while philosophy often focuses on abstract ideas and values
# Science is about descriptive facts; philosophy is often about that, but is also about normative and evaluative truths
# Science looks at what is, while philosophy looks at why it exists.
*2. Ethics of Materialism :
Materialism is a philosophy that prioritizes material things over spiritual or intellectual ones. Materialistic ethics are ethical theories that are based on the idea that the only things that exist are matter, energy, and physical forces.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... aterialism
Note --- By contrast, Process Philosophy understands that whole systems also exist as the "more than" matter. The whole is more than the sum of the parts.
*3. Ethics of Spiritualism :
The ethics of spiritualism are a system of moral philosophy that considers the relationship between evolution and the existence of the human spirit after death. Spiritual ethics can also refer to the principles that guide how people use their spiritual beliefs and practices in the world.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... iritualism
Note --- Unlike theological religions, Whitehead's philosophical theology was not primarily concerned with an afterlife, but in our evolutionary adaptation to the evolving world.
*4. Quantum Fields are philosophical theories tacked-on to the new physics, when the long-sought ultimate particle remained elusive, and the inter-relationships of entanglement became undeniable.
"Quantum fields are not made of anything as far as we know. They just exist in the universe based on quantum field theory." https://www.quora.com/What-are-quantum- ... hey-formed
What are its ethical implications? Or any other kind, for that matter? — Amity
I can't say with any authority, what Whitehead's "point" was. But my takeaway is that he was inspired by the counterintuitive-yet-provable "facts" of the New Physics of the 20th century --- that contrasted with 17th century Classical Physics --- to return the distracted philosophical focus a> from what is observed (matter), to the observer (mind), b> from local to universal, c> from mechanical steps to ultimate goals. Where Science studies *percepts* (specifics ; local ; particles), the New Philosophy will investigate *concepts* (generals ; universals ; processes). The "point" of that re-directed attention was the same as always though : basic understanding of Nature, Reality, Knowledge, and Value*1.
Our senses & intuitions are "tuned" to macro-scale Newtonian mechanics. Which is why quantum things & processes seem weird. During the 19th century, Physical Science had been very successful in allowing one species to take control of their environment. Consequently, the pragmatic victories scored by Matter-manipulating Physics & Chemistry, had put theoretical Philosophy in a bad light. And, when their former role as the captains of academia diminished in market value, philosophers began to suffer from "lab coat envy". Consequently, today, on this very forum, speculative & argumentative philosophy is often disparaged as useless, unless it can point to empirical evidence. Many TPF posters seem to have taken the attitude : if you can't beat them (science) join them (Scientism).
On the other hand, Whitehead seemed to envision, in the light of quantum physics, a new direction for Natural Philosophy. Instead of continuing the ancient quest of Atomism (the ultimate particle of matter), philosophers should now turn their attention to Wholes instead of Parts. From this new/old perspective, the Cosmos is not just a swirling mass of matter/energy, but an evolving process metaphysically moving toward some future state. Exactly what that Omega Point might be is of course unknown, but its direction can be inferred from the trajectory of its history.
Modern materialistic Science has been superbly successful in wresting control of Nature for the benefit of a few featherless big-brain bipeds. But Metaphysical Philosophy is not concerned with such practical matters. Instead, it studies intellectual questions of Meaning & Value. By contrast, Science per se is not interested in Ethics other than Utility : such as the very successful Atom bomb project, aimed at annihilating cities. So, the Ethics of Science*2 seems to be a philosophical endeavor tacked-on after the fact : as when Oppenheimer lamented, "I have become Death, destroyer of worlds".
Whitehead's philosophy can be labeled as Spiritual*3 (intellectual instead of physical) in the sense that it recognizes invisible forces & fields*4 at work in the world. But, unlike the traditional scientific notion of local cause & effect, he speculates on universal causes that control the direction of Evolution. So, whatever Ethics is associated with Process Philosophy will be global in its effects, and teleological in its aims.
*1. Point of Philosophy vs Science :
# Science deals in evidence while philosophy deals in arguments
# Science looks for empirical knowledge and facts, while philosophy often focuses on abstract ideas and values
# Science is about descriptive facts; philosophy is often about that, but is also about normative and evaluative truths
# Science looks at what is, while philosophy looks at why it exists.
*2. Ethics of Materialism :
Materialism is a philosophy that prioritizes material things over spiritual or intellectual ones. Materialistic ethics are ethical theories that are based on the idea that the only things that exist are matter, energy, and physical forces.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... aterialism
Note --- By contrast, Process Philosophy understands that whole systems also exist as the "more than" matter. The whole is more than the sum of the parts.
*3. Ethics of Spiritualism :
The ethics of spiritualism are a system of moral philosophy that considers the relationship between evolution and the existence of the human spirit after death. Spiritual ethics can also refer to the principles that guide how people use their spiritual beliefs and practices in the world.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... iritualism
Note --- Unlike theological religions, Whitehead's philosophical theology was not primarily concerned with an afterlife, but in our evolutionary adaptation to the evolving world.
*4. Quantum Fields are philosophical theories tacked-on to the new physics, when the long-sought ultimate particle remained elusive, and the inter-relationships of entanglement became undeniable.
"Quantum fields are not made of anything as far as we know. They just exist in the universe based on quantum field theory." https://www.quora.com/What-are-quantum- ... hey-formed
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
Do you not think it’s dehumanizing because according to process philosophy humans don’t exist? Because that’s my point pretty much. — Darkneos
I'm beginning to see why Whitehead's process philosophy bothers you so much. He seems to have formulated a worldview that is closer to that of indigenous people around the world than to western science & physics. It's based on cycles & flux instead of linear time & static things.
My background was in the western traditions of both religion and science. But in my later years, I am trying to understand other ways of viewing reality. I'm currently reading a book written by a British quantum physicist, David Peat, who has studied the cultures of indigenous Americans (I'll call them Indigians instead of Indians). He says "our western minds desire to sort things out, to arrange knowledge in a logical fashion and order the world into categories. . . . it is not so much the questions themselves that are the problem, but the whole persistent desire to obtain knowledge through a particular analytical route".
He seems to find some commonalities between his sub-atomic world-model and the worldview of non-western humans. Just as quantum entities have properties of both waves and particles, human persons are both individuals and immersed in larger Holistic systems. He notes that "quantum theory stresses the irreducible link between observer and observed and the basic holism of all phenomena". That may sound like nonsense or BS to you. But it makes sense to some professional physicists --- admittedly a minority --- such as David Bohm ; whose notion of Implicate and Explicate orders of reality is not accepted in mainstream science. Probably because it is more philosophical than scientific, more holistic than analytic.
In Peat's book, he compares the two worldviews by noting that "in modern physics the essential stuff of the universe cannot be reduced to billiard-ball atoms, but exists as relationships and fluctuations at the boundary of what we call matter and energy". Also, in Whitehead's Process and Reality, he prefaces his Gifford lectures with "these lectures will be best understood by noting the following list of prevalent habits of thought, which are repudiated, in so far as concerns their influence on philosophy : 1. The distrust of speculative thought". You may consider Indigians to be ignorant savages, but Peat finds their holistic science to be compatible with his own non-mechanical, probabilistic Physics.
Apparently, your "habits of thought", and to some degree my own, make it difficult to understand the non-classical non-western holistic worldview of Quantum Physics and Indigenous peoples. Richard Feynman expressed his own "distrust of speculative thought" by advising his students to "shut-up and calculate". But this is supposed to be a Philosophy forum, in which speculative thought is de rigeur. So, if you find Whitehead's speculations to conflict with your Newtonian classical worldview, perhaps you should ignore the meaning & implications & ethics of Process philosophy, and stick to calculating abstract countable values.
Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947) believed that humans are part of a fabric of reality that includes nature.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... +existence
Whitehead's theory of human personhood is formulated within the fabric of his highly original western metaphysical vision. Rejecting the Aristotelian doctrine of substantive being, Whitehead embraced instead an ontology of becoming that sought to categorize the things of this world within a naturalistic continuum. . . . . The focus of this paper is personal selfhood and personal identity in the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead.
https://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/PPer/PPerYong.htm
I'm beginning to see why Whitehead's process philosophy bothers you so much. He seems to have formulated a worldview that is closer to that of indigenous people around the world than to western science & physics. It's based on cycles & flux instead of linear time & static things.
My background was in the western traditions of both religion and science. But in my later years, I am trying to understand other ways of viewing reality. I'm currently reading a book written by a British quantum physicist, David Peat, who has studied the cultures of indigenous Americans (I'll call them Indigians instead of Indians). He says "our western minds desire to sort things out, to arrange knowledge in a logical fashion and order the world into categories. . . . it is not so much the questions themselves that are the problem, but the whole persistent desire to obtain knowledge through a particular analytical route".
He seems to find some commonalities between his sub-atomic world-model and the worldview of non-western humans. Just as quantum entities have properties of both waves and particles, human persons are both individuals and immersed in larger Holistic systems. He notes that "quantum theory stresses the irreducible link between observer and observed and the basic holism of all phenomena". That may sound like nonsense or BS to you. But it makes sense to some professional physicists --- admittedly a minority --- such as David Bohm ; whose notion of Implicate and Explicate orders of reality is not accepted in mainstream science. Probably because it is more philosophical than scientific, more holistic than analytic.
In Peat's book, he compares the two worldviews by noting that "in modern physics the essential stuff of the universe cannot be reduced to billiard-ball atoms, but exists as relationships and fluctuations at the boundary of what we call matter and energy". Also, in Whitehead's Process and Reality, he prefaces his Gifford lectures with "these lectures will be best understood by noting the following list of prevalent habits of thought, which are repudiated, in so far as concerns their influence on philosophy : 1. The distrust of speculative thought". You may consider Indigians to be ignorant savages, but Peat finds their holistic science to be compatible with his own non-mechanical, probabilistic Physics.
Apparently, your "habits of thought", and to some degree my own, make it difficult to understand the non-classical non-western holistic worldview of Quantum Physics and Indigenous peoples. Richard Feynman expressed his own "distrust of speculative thought" by advising his students to "shut-up and calculate". But this is supposed to be a Philosophy forum, in which speculative thought is de rigeur. So, if you find Whitehead's speculations to conflict with your Newtonian classical worldview, perhaps you should ignore the meaning & implications & ethics of Process philosophy, and stick to calculating abstract countable values.
Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947) believed that humans are part of a fabric of reality that includes nature.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... +existence
Whitehead's theory of human personhood is formulated within the fabric of his highly original western metaphysical vision. Rejecting the Aristotelian doctrine of substantive being, Whitehead embraced instead an ontology of becoming that sought to categorize the things of this world within a naturalistic continuum. . . . . The focus of this paper is personal selfhood and personal identity in the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead.
https://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/PPer/PPerYong.htm
Re: TPF : What exactly is Process Philosophy?
I don’t know why I bother responding when it’s evident you know nothing of which you speak. — Darkneos
Why do you bother to respond? You seem to be offended by Whitehead's ideas, as you mistakenly interpret them. ↪180 Proof in the next post says: "you're asking the wrong question". But I think it's a proper question to ask of any worldview*5, but based on erroneous assumptions.
I took the OP as a sincere attempt to obtain help in understanding the unorthodox philosophical worldview of an acknowledged genius, whose "magnum opus" is over the heads of most of us mortals. But instead of a philosophical dialog, this thread has become a political diatribe, on a work that you admitted you don't understand*1. Ironically, you portray Whitehead as an idiot who didn't understand Quantum Physics in the manner you prefer. And you have haughtily & sarcastically rejected all proffered opinions that don't match the world model that you are looking to support. Of course, Whitehead had little influence on modern Science, because his philosophy is mental (hypothetical) instead of material (pragmatic).
I don't know how you would characterize your personal worldview, but it sounds like matter-based Scientism (what you see is all there is), which would indeed be in opposition to Whitehead's process-based worldview. Your my-way-or-the-highway prejudice might be better served by posting on a Science forum. However, at least one poster on Philosophy Stack Exchange seems to share your literalistic mis-understanding of Process Philosophy*3. Pioneering sub-atomic physicists*4 were forced to describe the non-classical paradoxes of quantum physics in terms of metaphors, which those coming from a classical background may interpret literally and materially. FWIW, a human is not "just processes" (on-going life), but also a person (body & mind), worthy of ethical treatment.
If you would like to share philosophical opinions on interpretations of Whitehead's work, instead of denigrating them, I'm open to continuing this thread. But I suspect that some TPF posters have already been turned-off by the political us-vs-them antagonism. Most of us are not scientists, and don't offer scientific opinions.
*1. What does Process Philosophy mean exactly?
Sorry for the confusion but I guess it just highlights my lack of comprehension of the subject. I've met maybe two people who subscribe to it and seem to live regular lives, though when I asked them to explain they couldn't, which gave me doubts about it.
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... ions-of-it
*2. Scientism is a philosophical position that claims science is the only way to obtain truth about the world. It's often used as a pejorative term to describe an exaggerated belief in the scientific method
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... philosophy
*3. I would think just seeing “things” as processes would shift the morality for folks since there wouldn’t be any reason to treat “others” well since they’re just processes. The same would go for human relationships as well. ___ Boltstorm
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... ions-of-it
*4. Alfred North Whitehead and Werner Heisenberg were thinkers in different fields, but their work is connected in the realm of quantum mechanics and the nature of reality.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... heisenberg
*5. Whitehead's Moral Philosophy :
Belaief depicts Whitehead’s view as a self-realizational ethics which reconciles the conflict between the individual interest and the general interest by appeal to morally preferable "true self-interest."
https://www.religion-online.org/article ... hilosophy/
Why do you bother to respond? You seem to be offended by Whitehead's ideas, as you mistakenly interpret them. ↪180 Proof in the next post says: "you're asking the wrong question". But I think it's a proper question to ask of any worldview*5, but based on erroneous assumptions.
I took the OP as a sincere attempt to obtain help in understanding the unorthodox philosophical worldview of an acknowledged genius, whose "magnum opus" is over the heads of most of us mortals. But instead of a philosophical dialog, this thread has become a political diatribe, on a work that you admitted you don't understand*1. Ironically, you portray Whitehead as an idiot who didn't understand Quantum Physics in the manner you prefer. And you have haughtily & sarcastically rejected all proffered opinions that don't match the world model that you are looking to support. Of course, Whitehead had little influence on modern Science, because his philosophy is mental (hypothetical) instead of material (pragmatic).
I don't know how you would characterize your personal worldview, but it sounds like matter-based Scientism (what you see is all there is), which would indeed be in opposition to Whitehead's process-based worldview. Your my-way-or-the-highway prejudice might be better served by posting on a Science forum. However, at least one poster on Philosophy Stack Exchange seems to share your literalistic mis-understanding of Process Philosophy*3. Pioneering sub-atomic physicists*4 were forced to describe the non-classical paradoxes of quantum physics in terms of metaphors, which those coming from a classical background may interpret literally and materially. FWIW, a human is not "just processes" (on-going life), but also a person (body & mind), worthy of ethical treatment.
If you would like to share philosophical opinions on interpretations of Whitehead's work, instead of denigrating them, I'm open to continuing this thread. But I suspect that some TPF posters have already been turned-off by the political us-vs-them antagonism. Most of us are not scientists, and don't offer scientific opinions.
*1. What does Process Philosophy mean exactly?
Sorry for the confusion but I guess it just highlights my lack of comprehension of the subject. I've met maybe two people who subscribe to it and seem to live regular lives, though when I asked them to explain they couldn't, which gave me doubts about it.
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... ions-of-it
*2. Scientism is a philosophical position that claims science is the only way to obtain truth about the world. It's often used as a pejorative term to describe an exaggerated belief in the scientific method
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... philosophy
*3. I would think just seeing “things” as processes would shift the morality for folks since there wouldn’t be any reason to treat “others” well since they’re just processes. The same would go for human relationships as well. ___ Boltstorm
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... ions-of-it
*4. Alfred North Whitehead and Werner Heisenberg were thinkers in different fields, but their work is connected in the realm of quantum mechanics and the nature of reality.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... heisenberg
*5. Whitehead's Moral Philosophy :
Belaief depicts Whitehead’s view as a self-realizational ethics which reconciles the conflict between the individual interest and the general interest by appeal to morally preferable "true self-interest."
https://www.religion-online.org/article ... hilosophy/
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